Thursday, April 20, 2006

Trip and having kids

I am traveling for the next 5 days or so Egyptian Easter plus the liberation of Sinai gave us a long weekend and a much needed break.

I leave you with this thought to ponder.

What would you do if you discovered after 2-3 maybe even 5 years of being happily married to your soul mate that you couldn’t have kids?

I had this conversation with a couple of my friends a while back

And then we proposed the other option (what would one do if the soul mate was the one who can’t have kids?)

Tough call…

(M) said that he would remarry if she couldn’t have kids, cuz he wants kids and that having kids is what drives you forward after sex and glory fizzle out. (I’m not sure if he was the one to initiate the conversation or if I started the debate, but he was outspoken about it and quite honest). He also said that if it was him who couldn’t have any kids that he would divorce said soul mate to avoid putting her in a situation where she had to chose ( to save her the embarrassment of having to ask for divorce, to make the ball in her court, so if she was to shy or afraid to hurt his feelings by asking for divorce she wouldn’t have to) I found that both opinions were not a bad idea though debatable
p.s his girlfriend was not present at the time (although I doubt it would have made a difference)

“the asshole” agreed that if it was him he would save her from being the bad person by divorcing her ( not offering cuz she would just say no out of emotions, but by actually divorcing her and seeing how things work out after six months or so) upon asking him if he would divorce her if it was her who couldn’t have kids he said no that he viewed marriage as a death do us part more or less and one should take his soul mate as a package. He was single at the time but had feelings for the first girl/colleague and had just broken up with (N)/ his current fiancĂ©e ( my guess that the whole soul mate/ package thing was a result of his hopeless romantic phase) ie: I don’t think this would be his normal reaction I just think that this was how he felt at the time

As for (H) who was engaged and still remains engaged to (MO), she said that she wouldn’t divorce her husband or ask for divorce in the Egyptian sense ya3ni citing the same whole package thing and also stated that it’s hard t predict the reaction of oneself in such situations, when asked what she would do if it was her who couldn’t have kids she said that it wasn’t her decision but that she wouldn’t accept being “a dorra” as in him remarrying and keeping her as a first wife and that she would ask for divorce if he wanted to remarry. ( her fiance was not present too)

More or less the remainder of the girls approved the not accepting to be a first wife and having him remarry, which I agree with at the moment

As for me, who was highly single at the time by choice and still remains single now (for lack of choices) I had the following to say

Having kids is basically one of the fewest driving forces in life that are not associated with a selfish reward, I mean one wants to be proud of his kids but more than that he wants them to be happy, after your sex drive slows down and after the gleam or glow of having a strong career where you fulfill yourself in fades out, what most of our parents have is doing the best for us.
I’d like to experience that kind of unconditional love towards my kids, that kind of love that’s almost impossible to happen with a partner.

Having said that, I’d much rather be happy with my partner than be miserable with another partner and just staying together for the kids’ sake. So divorcing her or remarrying just because she can’t have kids is out of the question.

however if that fact affects us as it most probably will, and she starts getting insecure about that fact and start smothering me and accuse me of wanting to remarry and starts getting self conscious around other women and their kids then the relationship is doomed. ( so it’s not the fact itself but the consequences that will cause the break up)

on the other hand if I was the one who can’t have kids, then the situation differs, I think I would do the same thing (M) proposed which is divorce her, knowing me I think I would be insecure about such a fact, and that I can’t give her the one thing that most women want more than anything in life. Of course I’m talking about a hypothetical partner (I still don’t know what the actual situation will be) maybe she won’t be that big on kids :)

I’m not a jealous guy, I’m the opposite of that usually in a relationship, in a healthy relationship that is, when the partner considers your feelings. Childish attempts to make me jealous in the past haven’t worked either as I usually saw through them, the only time I get jealous is when I feel belittled by my partner in something she says, and in that case I will have something to be insecure about and i probably will be too alert and too sensitive

In the end I guess what I’m saying is it’s difficult to predict your outcome as it differs from one case to the other

One of my dad’s best friends and his wife don’t have any kids, and it’s a special case as well ( the doctors told them that due to both of them having low fertility, it’s not possible for them to have kids together, that means that if either of them had been with another partner he could have kids, it was a simultaneous decision from both of them to stay together, they tried artificial insemination a couple of times and when that didn’t work they just gave up, just wasn’t meant to be. (That was in the late 80’s so medical discoveries were not as advanced as they are today) probably if they had tried with what we have now it could have worked but they’re both over 50 now.

I always admired their decision, made me feel that there was still some romance in this world, and the fact that it was both of them made it even more romantic, there weren’t as many problems as there would be if it was only one of them who had the problem but still they faced some hardships because of their decision, the fact that none of them would be kid less if they had divorced and remarried and the fact that they chose to take the hard path together made me respect what they had.

In the end I would like whoever wants to comment on that topic to share his views, what would you do if it was you and what would you do if it was your partner/soul mate

P.S It’s a long post but I thought I must write something before I travel for the next 5 days, I’m not your regular 5 posts a day blogger but I try whenever the chance arises


johny bravo said...

It didn't take me much time to come up with my decision since I know it since long time. Personally I dont wanna have kids & I wish not to have at all. Therefore,if my partner is the one who can't have kids, I'll be the happiest woman on earth since my wish came true & I won't have kids as I wantd. consequently, I'll stay with him with no hesitation,why not if he made me happy :) Ofcourse I won't lead him to divorce me as what your friends said to free me & let me live all women dream of being a mom.Because he will know from even engagement period about my uninterest in kids & hence when stating this after marriage he won't doubt me bing sympetetic or sacrificying.
If I'm the one who can't have kids,,well.For me,again happy thing to achieve my wish & if he wants kids, I'll get divorce so happily & easily that i won't feel i was defected or less than a complete woman as some think.Truely kareem,not having kids because of medical reasons or by my choice are the same.I dont want kids even if I can so my partner has to either take it or leave it.Therefore, I have no problem here like other women,if it's him,i'll be happier,if it's me, either we together or i will leave him & still I'm happy.

Pazuzu said...

I believe the ideal thing would be is to know in advance, tests or stuff, but sometimes that's not enough, and I realise that.
However when it comes to my personal opinion, it's very clear. I have little social life, and there were little romance in my life, and I don't really feel like I need it or want it. So when there would come into my life someone that would be that interesting I would take him as a package, because as I believe the options are not very wide and there is no perfect relationship. In fact a few months back I came to admit that the only scale according to which I'd choose a husband is how much I feel good with him, and yes if we really wanted to have kids, infertility would be an obstacle, and if the difficulties would become big enough then maybe seperation is the best solution, but I'd never divorce a guy to marry another and have kids.
Being a catholic person makes it even harder since divorce is not granted on the base of infertility hehe.
Now if I was the one who can't have kids and if my husband expresses his inclination to seperation I'd certainly grant it to him, I can never force him to live with me, but I will never accept it as a normal thing, or his "right", in other terms i'll severe any relationship of any nature with him.
If he was the one who can't have kids, then it will be just part of our marriage:
"-Hey Rebecca I can't have kids.
- Oh that's a shame, what are we having for dinner?"
I know I may sound like a dreamer but I am pretty sure that'll be as much importance as I might give.
If he chooses to leave me because he can't have kids and he wants to set me free, well in that case I'd feel very insulted, if I choose to be with him and he takes that away from me then he has made the ultimate act of disrespect towards me. I might not be the kind of people who does what I wish, and I might be easily dominated by people around me, but I expect my soul mate to be different, and not impose things on me.
Finally one last thought about kids. I have a brother that's 14 years younger than me, and I always had a very special relationship with him. In addition I had a particularly difficult adolescence. Viewing these two facts I don't consider childbirth as neither a duty, or a blessing, it's a very difficult challenge, it's also the ultimate act of selfishness. We are always confident we'll succeed, but in fact we are all doomed to fail. I remember promising myself never to have kids if I can't avoid my child the hell I went through (not that there were anything anyone could have done to get me out of my darkness) and now 8 years later I still am not sure I'll be able to prevent that misery.
I realise that it's difficult to predict our reactions when such a situation takes place. But I believe that we have to think about it and make up our choices before getting into such a challenge, we have to make choices and stick to them as well as we can. Realising a decision is difficult is no excuse to avoid it.

Pazuzu said...

OMG I just oticed how long my post was. Sorry.

Crazy Girl said...

I have a lot to say as always but I will be as short as I can.
I don't think anyone knows what romance is anymore. Egypt now has become arm candy mania. I swear even my best friend would only date guys that look good with her. No one cares to take the time to figure out what the hell they want in this life. Women wanna be little suzie home makers and men want the arm candy that they can show off and a clean home to come home to and that's it. I probably said all that before.
As far as what I would do. You don't really have a choice when you fall in love with the right person and if it's true love you wouldn't leave the one you love just because you want a child. Ever hear of adoption? Yes it's not the same. Secondly if they are truly in love they would be able to discuss it and each would be able to make their choice together.
My personal choice on children is why do I want to bring kids into this miserable world.. I have yet to see a happy marriage. My parents were married for almost 21 years before my dad died and it was not pretty. All my aunts and uncles have miserable marriages. I somehow thought I would be different cause I wouldn't follow in their paths and I was wrong my ex and I were heading right in their direction.
I would never be able to be a second wife, I am just that selfish but if it was my fault that I couldn't have kids I would make sure that he had the choice to leave. Besides if having children is so important to someone why don't they both get tested before they get married to be sure.
On a side note the whole genetics thing here in Egypt is gonna be so big here with the marriage industry.. Imagine when people go to propose and they start doing genetic testing to see what their kids would look like..he he just saying! Were so superficial like that anyways..
I remember a saying which I think is in the quran "Al mal wa banoon zenna" Not a necessity. So god said its not a must to have kids so then why is it such a major problem with people?

Crazy Girl said...

PS Have a great trip!!

Cup of Malice said...

Hmmm... Marriage, nahhh!

I am a little concerned as to the mindset of Mr. K to have brought up this overly conventional topic in what is otherwise a gloriously angry blog.

I say that we chuck the entire institution of wedlock out the proverbial window, demolish the societal premises on which it was based, go out and find the most attractive person from the opposite gender we can land and live in a state of unoppressed hedonism until both parties agree to seperate amicably. Then go out and do it again.

Bring back the commune, Make love not war!!!

Pazuzu said...

"I am a little concerned as to the mindset of Mr. K to have brought up this overly conventional topic in what is otherwise a gloriously angry blog."

Well Mr Cup of Malice, you might not know this, but this sort of conventional sort of topics aims simply to attract the ladies, we the ladies simply love these topics, we like to dissect our feeling and stuff like that. Kareem's simply trying get into our hearts (and so on)

. said...

As im in the middle of exam period and this is how i intend to procrastinate i shall respond.

I would not care. Because the love between a man and a woman should extend far beyond the ability to have children. and when that im-so-in-love-with-you feeling fades what should remain is a deeper love that intense respect and caring that two people have with eachother. That is what this girl wants, not necessarily the ability to breed.

If i can't have children of course that will suck but I would not divorce him in order to set him free so he could. Fuck that. We got married and he loves me, if he insists on looking elsewhere then fine, but then obviously he is not my soul mate.

I want to have my own children, preferably a little girl who i would call...well, a name that's important to me... because my child shall not have a stupid fluffy name but one with substance and power. Yet, i do not feel that my love would be any less powerful for an adopted child of mine...

I intend to talk to my husband about this before we marry... this is not something i want sprung on me. He shall also have to take a very long lie detector joke.

And if he leaves me? I'll let him go, obviously.

-girl out

P.S. Karim- I adore being single... but someone to come home to would be nice as well... Yet, I am not made for dating. Maybe i'll join a nunnery. be a catholic nun and revoke my real religion.

-girl out out

Crazy Girl said...

I hope your ok and didn't go to Dahab..

johny bravo said...

yeah ,join my voice to yasmina,hope you werent one of Dahb's new victims.Write a word Karem to assure us you're safe & sound
take care,this country doesn't fit for vacations/relaxation anymore

Sand-E Sez said...

One often forgets that parenting is a practice and not merely a title. Think of your question from a different perspective. What happens when you can have children but can’t take care of them 5 years down the road? Do you just leave? Find them a father or mother who can? Of course not! It’s a commitment you’ve made and a risk you should have been willing to accept from the start. Just the same you’re committed to your relationship just as you would have been to parenting. Your inability to have children doesn’t relate to the sustenance of your relationship. A home that is filled with love is a healthy child rearing environment, so to say I’m going to stop being with my soul mate in order to have children sounds ridiculous to me. I imagine a person who has chosen a new partner on the sole requirement of having children is bound to eventually on some level resent the child and person who have kept him/her from their soul-mate. Furthermore, to have a child carry the burden of all your personal sacrifices in my opinion is entirely unfair. And so to those that say that the desire to have children is overwhelming I say this: Egypt is filled with orphaned children, children whose lives would greatly differ if only taken in by a loving couple. Adopt a child. Raise it the best you can and love it with both your hearts’ utmost capabilities.

still breathing said...

well i won't get married in the 1st place.
balash waga3 dema'3.
asln who'd want to see my "pretty" face everyday for the next 25 years of his life?

and if i did i guess i'll freak out at the 1st problem and demand a divorce.

btw i'd say yes to an impotent man on some special terms.